What Kind of Muslim Are You?

I have been receiving some… interesting comments recently. Someone called “dude” said the following:

“wudu is not for you..forget about it..u just try adding many more haram reformist irshad manji links on ur page.”

He went on to give links to a story about emel Magazine and pictures of its editor, Sarah Joseph (a name also dropped by commenter “Iamrubbish”). I hadn’t really heard of Joseph or this magazine before, and I want to thank both dude and Iamrubbish for bringing it to my attention. And yes, dude, I will be adding it to my collection of haram-reformist-irshad-manji links, since apparently all my links are somehow magically tied to Manji.

I am blown away by this magazine! Shown here is the cover art for their “Muslims in China” feature. Here is a magazine that celebrates Muslim life – in all of its beauty and diversity! One of the stories I read is What Kind of Muslim Are You? , and here is an excerpt which I think I (and all those who choose to comment on this blog) should take note of:

“More often than not, a Muslim will be defined by how outwardly pious they appear – how long is his beard, how expansive is her head-covering – as though a Muslim is defined on one axis only. Such lazy and judgemental labelling has prevented us from seeing the human aspirations, motivations and even foibles that make up the great mosaic of the global Muslim nation.”(Emphasis added)

People both inside and outside of Islam seem to portray it as monolithic – and if thats true, which of you is doing it right? Even within sects there are differences, and everyone seems to feel that their way is the only right way. But the fact is that Islam belongs to Muslims, and no two Muslims are alike. You can spit “haram!” all you like, it won’t change the fact that you are part of a huge, and somewhat dysfunction family. You can try to hide them or hide from that family, but it will only result in isolation for you. If I do become Muslim, it is my hope to eventually see all humanity as my family (even the stereotypical shady cousin that no one wants to talk about or invite to weddings).

Again, thank you my dear readers for finding this for me, I found it to be very inspirational. If you have any other suggestions of links I might add, please feel free to do so (but I ask you, dude, to please be less hostile in the future). As for removing links – not gonna happen.

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39 responses to “What Kind of Muslim Are You?

  1. NO ONE is doing it right. None of us. Trying to tell a Muslim who and what they should be, and how, is arrogant and only says something about the inner beauty, or lack thereof, of that particular person who is trying to preach, aka, judge and feel superior.

    This is the disease of the heart. Arrogance and self-righteousness.

    • I couldn’t agree more, unsettledsoul. I enjoy your comments here and your blog!

      In fairness, this is an important lesson for me as well: I can’t foist my ultra-liberal, manji-lovin’ (apparently), haram-reformist-linkin’ attitude down people’s throats (and, to me, that means not leaving nasty messages on websites I dislike, but to each their own, I suppose). There are going to be people I disagree with, who may even be nasty to me, if/when I become Muslim (which isn’t exactly in vogue right now in the US, for that matter). That’s life. I just need to decide what my response to that hostility should be. Its tricky, because on the one hand I want to be composed and saint-like, but on the other hand I don’t want to let people walk all over me.

  2. correcting some1’s mistake is a good thing. If some is adding 1+1=3 then wont u come up to him and tell him he’s doing it wrong? …. or will u jz sit quietly and wait till he fails his test? …. If that were the case then muslims wouldnt care and wouldnt preach Islam. They would sit down in their own mosques like the jews do and not preach a single thing. Btw the jews really dont preach judaism and u cant convert to judaism unless ur moms a jew.

    and Islam is a monolithic religion. Of course there are CERTIAN FEW issues where people have difference on opinion which is on fiqh. But no1 argues on matters of Aqeedah.

    For example irshad manji propagates homosexuality and says its allowed in Islam. She also calls for reformation of Islam. These people have come and gone but Islam is still here in it’s original source. The only thing that needs changing and reformation is us. Now why is she considered an apostate? well i think it’s quite obvious by now. Reformation to the religion of god? … why do these people want a religion in the first place? … they should just make their own cult with their own rules like the Nation of Islam(NOI) which considers all white people to be devils. Would u consider the NOI muslim when it has its own prophet and consider black people better than whites? …..

    Of course we shouldnt label people behind their backs. As we all know according to hadith , *backbiting* is talking behind some1’s back which he would not like if u would talk about it infront of him. BUT when people start to say or write stuff which is clearly forbidden in Islam then actions should be taken to shun such people so that others dont get misguided. The right way to correct peoples mistakes is to be done in private. We should go around exposing peoples sins cause in hadith it says *if u shade some1’s sins in this life then Allah(swt) will shade urs on the day of judgement* … now the *sins* mentioned in this hadith doesnt mean that if a person goes around killing people then u keep quiet about it. Lets say a person steals a pen and u know he did it and u know its his first time then u can advise him in private to return the pen and repent BUT if he doesnt listen and continues stealing then u SHOULD report him.

    • Actually, I knew a girl who converted to Judaism who came from a Christian background – her mother wasn’t Jewish, and neither was anyone else in her family going back several generations. I looked at a few websites about conversion and none of them mentioned this requirement. Maybe your thinking about the practice of matrilineality in Judaism: those born of Jewish mothers are themselves Jewish – but they don’t need to convert, they are already Jewish by birth. (On a complete side note: If in Judaism the children follow the religion of the mother, why are Muslim men allowed to marry Jewish women? Won’t their kids be Jews, not Muslims? But I digress.)

      I’m sorry, blackb3ard911, but unless the Islam you believe in excludes the Shia, the Sufi, even some Sunni, and numerous scholarly attitudes that exist, as well as the different cultural practices that vary by geography, and even the differences in understanding that exist within communities – then Islam is not monolithic. If Islam is a united Ummah, then its got a very, very small population.

      “The only thing that needs changing and reformation is us.” I couldn’t agree more! I think Manji’s approach is simplistic and (perhaps unnecessarily) polemic. What you said seems to echo the words of Abdolkarim Soroush, who I mentioned in an earlier post, and whose attitude I find far more productive than Manji’s. And although her voice might be the loudest right now, she is hardly the only Muslim challenging the notion that homosexuality is haram. There are lots of closeted and openly gay Muslims who are trying to understand if God really created them “wrong” or if maybe its us humans who misunderstood the message to begin with.

      I know next to nothing about the Nation of Islam, so I won’t comment on them.

      “BUT when people start to say or write stuff which is clearly forbidden in Islam then actions should be taken to shun such people so that others dont get misguided. The right way to correct peoples mistakes is to be done in private. ”

      If the right thing to do is shun people who you think are wrong, why do so many people come to my blog to leave nasty comments? I could get used to some shunning right about now! 🙂 I am fine with being corrected when I’m wrong, I’m not so fine with people labeling me when they don’t know me, and attacking me without bothering to understand me. You’ve corrected me in the past for misquotes and misunderstandings, and I’ve appreciated your attention to detail and our conversations in general.

      I agree with you about talking to people in private instead of “airing your dirty laundry”, as my mother calls it. Strange… I guess Manji falls into a loophole that says any person can call her an apostate without ever privately encouraging her to change. And instead of ignoring her and telling others to do the same, they can regularly insult her and anyone who has ever peeked at her website.

      • well u can convert to judaism just like manji thinks she’s muslim. BUT people wont accept u a jew. U can read their books. All non jews are gentiles. We were animals made into humans by god to serve the jews. I didnt write that. U can read it in the torah which has been corrupted by the rabbis.

        the reason why muslim men are allowed to marry jewish and christian women cause they are people of the book although corrupted. BUT nowadays most christians/jews date/fornicate b4 getting married. U cant do that in Islam. 2ndly although it is allowed , it is strictly discouraged also. The only man that is successful is 1 that marries a woman for her deen and not for her money , voluptuous beauty ,etc. And their kids wont be jewish according to the muslim view. Thats what the jews think cause their book tells them to.

        Shia/Sufi/Ahmediya/NOI/etc. Now what makes u muslim? … just by saying muslim and worshipping other gods means u associated partners with ALlah(swt) and u are out of Islam. U wont understand this issue cause it requires practical knowledge with these people which i have. Majority Shia believe Ali(rad) is comparable to god. Sufis believe in calling on the dead. Ahmediyas and NOI have their own prophets. and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

        Oh yeah there are gay muslims. Ive heard they even got a gay imam in the US somewhere. lol my bad. Did i say gay imam? …. yeah i did. Thats what happens when u reject hadith. U can follow ur desires and then say its not mentioned in the Quran. People like them came and went but Islam is still here the way it was send. People can try all they want to change Islam and call for muslims to leave jihad and take the non muslims who are openly at war with muslims as allies but it just wont happen. And we can see who’s winning in afghanistan. This world is a test. And in a test u get hard questions and easy ones. I aint gay but i know of a gay person on a forum that converted to Islam and is not straight. And i dont see him whining that he wants to be gay again. He’s happy with his married life with his wife, if he’s married.

        **If the right thing to do is shun people who you think are wrong, why do so many people come to my blog to leave nasty comments?**

        i’m not a spokesperson for the people that leave nasty comments on ur channel. Its like me calling u christopher columbus’s accomplice who we all know killed red indians and enslaved black people.

        I couldnt bother attacking people over the internet. These type of things happen in public debates. Online its useless and i can much better with m time then attack people. And u said urself u arent muslim yet so well worthless ther wouldnt be any point in attacking a person that isnt even muslim yet.

        Manji is a different case. People have told her and advised her but people and their ego/pride nowadays is actually pathetic. They think they can have all the fun in this life and go without any trial and they will get a free ticket to heaven. WRONG! …. it says in the Quran

        29:2-3] “Do the people think that they will be left to say, “We believe,” without being put to the test?” We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

        [3:179] GOD is not to leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the bad from the good.

        [2:214] Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you?

        so well who’s up for the test? … cause manji and the likes are certainly cherry picking not only the hadiths but also the Quran. Interpreting it the way they like although they cant even speak the original language it was revealed with.

  3. @ sophia

    **Its tricky, because on the one hand I want to be composed and saint-like, but on the other hand I don’t want to let people walk all over me.**

    well u dont need to be both. People do sins all the time. But u must repent. Allah(swt) has said u can repent until ur soul has not departed from ur body or well when the sun rises from the west which is the end of times.

    And u should not justify ur sins and call it Islamic. Imagine a serial killer trying to justify what he is doing is Islamic.

    • I don’t have to imagine it; plenty of stuff on the news these days about people committing mass murder in the name of Allah. People also use Islam to justify everything from marital rape to forbidding female judges. I think those things are wrong, with or without Islam, and I think opposing those things is a moral imperative regardless of one’s faith. I don’t think Islam needs reform: I think we need to reform how we understand Islam, so that these terrible injustices cannot be carried out in the name of God.

  4. Salam sophia,
    First of all, you’re doing a great job with your page. I really like it.
    as for the post, i agree with unsettled soul. I had a good read “Let us Be Muslim” by Sayyid Abul A’la Mawdudi which i quote “What right has one servant to say that he alone is the genuine servant while the other is not?One may argue that his understanding is correct, bu this does not give him the authority to expel anyone from Islam”
    Islam is about peace, which part of peace can it include hostility, intolerable, violence, rudeness, prejudice and etc? You do what you got to do, truth of the matter is by the end of the day, who are we really trying to please? we can’t please everyone for sure. We know we try to make ourselves happy. God knows best our intention and that should matter most.
    keep doing what you’re doing, with good intentions, lets hope we’ll end up on the same road. 🙂

    • Salam Hajar!
      Thank you so much, I’m glad you like it! I may have to find that book you mentioned, it sounds like a good read.

      “who are we really trying to please?” You make a great point. It’s hard not to worry about what people think of you, but at the end of the day we are supposed to serve God, not win popularity contests.

  5. well rape is forbidden in islam and every1 knows that. But if its between a married couple than thats different. I think there is also a verse in the Quran that speaks of this issue.

    On the issue of having female judges. I cant say cause i havent read this issue. But if ur the judge then it means working with males cause it is a male area. So well that sorts out the issue pretty much unless its a necessity in which u dont have any job and need money to provide for the family.

    On the issue of ‘murders’. Well killing innocents is haraam as clearly stated in the Quran and hadith. But war is different. 9/11 was bad as it killed the innocents but as u would have read the 9/11 commission report than the part where it asked the motives of the attackers had been left out. However if u go on youtube a man actually asks this question and the answer is that this happened due to the continous support of US to israel and its bombings in sudan and other covert operations. Of course i dont support killing innocents but if ur going to kill my loved ones using a drone and expect me to keep quiet then that is a mistake. People get fired up and they have only thing in mind left and that is ‘revenge’ ….. and u are allowed to defend urselves in Islam.

    How we understand Islam is done by carefully learning history which is done by the scholars. They read and search books tracing out the isnaads which takes years and years. If a junior wants to ride a horse and tells every1 that he knows how to do it without any1’s help then he will surely loose control of the horse and fall down. Simply if every muslim starts interpreting Quran jz like what irshad manji does then surely she will take us all to hell with her.

    • Rape is rape. If a husband forces himself on his wife when she tells him no, its still rape. Its more complex because people think that sex between a married couple is automatically consensual, but thats not always the case.

      Yes, the Quran says we can defend ourselves. The US used that same justification – defense – to invade Iraq. I think you and I would agree that there is some moral ambiguity when defense is used to justify atrocities.

      If scholars are the only ones who understand Islam, then all Muslims should try to become scholars. You can’t learn to ride a horse just by reading a book written by an expert… sooner or later you have to ride. If the only way for me to understand this religion is to actually go through all the training a scholar goes through… tell me where to sign up!

      • **If a husband forces himself on his wife when she tells him no, its still rape. Its more complex because people think that sex between a married couple is automatically consensual, but thats not always the case. **

        i just dont get what kind of couple that would file for rape charges against each other… If that is the case then they should file for divorce since they dont care about each others needs.

        The US has been defending itself all the time. In latin america the Trujillo Massacre who every1 knows were trained by the CIA in the US in a school called The School of the Americas, where they learned their brutal tactics. Or it be it in vietnam where a small ferry opened fire on a US warship. All in the name of defence. But u see it always doesnt work out. As we all know afghanistan is nicknamed the ‘graveyard of empires’ … why is it nicknamed that? … well u should read history to know. And the collapse of the US is becoming a reality btw.

        Yes scholars are the only from which u know most of the rulings in Islam. Cigarettes are nowhere mentioned in the Quran. So one would think that it’s alright to smoke altough like 90% of cancer related deaths are by cig’s if im not mistaken. So then the scholars used the Quran to find out if cig’s are haraam or not. And they said its haraam by providing proof that it is a form of suicide done on urself cause u r going to die if u smoke that stuff.

        Now some people dont want to ride the horse. they just want to sit back and do something else. U can know the basics of understanding Islam but u cant ever come up with the fatwa such as that which is given on cigarettes and backed up with proof. And why would every1 want to be a scholar in todays time? … It can never happen since majority of them is too money minded chasing the skies which he will never attain.

        **You can’t learn to ride a horse just by reading a book written by an expert**

        thats like saying to a surgeon u cant operate a brain tumor without having a brain tumor urself

        **tell me where to sign up**

        no matter where u sign up. U will get nowhere until u understand the hadith status in Islam. The Haidths are a commentary on the Quran giving info on certain issues which arent talked about in detail in the Quran. And that is why the Quranists dont know how to pray and do hajj …. they just waste their money by going to saudi and do a few of the rituals and miss out the rest and think they did hajj.

  6. Rape is rape. In fact, many rapes happen between couples. Having sex with a woman when she does not want to, whether a wife or anyone else, is RAPE.

    “well rape is forbidden in islam and every1 knows that. But if its between a married couple than thats different. I think there is also a verse in the Quran that speaks of this issue.”

    Are you going to defend the rape of a wife by her husband, by using the Quran? You sound like the sheik from the UK who is preaching this nonsense.

    • @soul

      this is so weird. Married couple and rape and rape in the same sentence?. Well shouldnt have married in the first place if this was the case. In Islam if the woman or the man doesnt comply during their needs then that simply means they arent worthy of each other.

      **Are you going to defend the rape of a wife by her husband, by using the Quran? You sound like the sheik from the UK who is preaching this nonsense.**

      do u want me to show u something from the Quran? …

      Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed;and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. {4:34}

      would u like to decipher that passage for me? …. btw the word ‘strike’ there has 17 different meanings in arabic , so would u tell me how u will interpret this? …. and look at the words carefully. Now this isnt a hadith so dont say i dont like this so i aint taking it.

      A married couple are told to comply with each other especially when it comes to sex cause this is when the whole problem arises. The husband or wife may look for other means or other people to fulfill their needs if necessary or it can jz create conflict between the 2 of them. And we all know how easy that is nowadays with all those red light centres across every street in the immoral world we live in nowadays.

      Just cause the husband or the wife isnt in the ‘mood’ doesnt mean u shun it and ignore the other persons needs. Next time the other spouse will also say the same thing that he/she is not in the ‘mood’.

  7. **In Islam if the woman or the man doesnt comply during their needs then that simply means they arent worthy of each other.**

    correction there. that sentence was wrong. I cant give a fatwa just like that.

    • I was under the impression that we are human beings with feelings, that we are to complement each other in marriage, and be good to each other. Do you even try to imagine what it would look like if a man forced himself on his wife? Not only is it rape, it is ABUSE. The Quran now allows abuse, and rape, huh? That is the problem I have with you religious fanatics, if you think the Quran says “fresh water and salt water don’t mix” you would accept it as truth, unquestionably.

      God gave us BRAINS!!

      I’m over this argument, there is no reasoning with cult members. May you never have daughters. Amen.

      • **I was under the impression that we are human beings with feelings, that we are to complement each other in marriage, and be good to each other.**

        The irony of ur statement. There are times when a wife/husband is not allowed to have sex with his wife/husband. Maybe u should read up on that. Oh wait u cant believe in them cause u dont believe in hadiths do u? … BUT if if the husband/wife uses the *not in the mood* thing without any legal excuse then that makes them clearly sinners.

        oh plz …. can u post the comment saying i said a man can force himself on his wife?. I said its different between married couple but i didnt say USE FORCE which u seem to put in my mouth.

        The problem with u reformist wannabee muslims is that u think u can cherry pick anything from the Quran and take what u like and leave the rest which u dont. Well thats the difference between a muslim like me and a munafiq like u who is under the impression that they are muslim.

        And i had no idea munafiqs like u can give a curse to some1 while u dont even except the religion of Allah(swt) in its entirety.

        LOL and cult members ?? .. seriously , its u and ur so called ‘modernists’ muslim myth that think they are muslims. U are worse than non muslims cause a non muslim doesnt cherry pick the Quran but denies it whole while u filthy kaffirs take what u like and throw away what u dont like. Quranists didnt even exist until when these people like manji homosexuals came out and couldnt accept hadiths. They dont even except the Quran when Allah(swt) himself says over and over again to obey the messenger and to follow his guidance.

        So u see in conclusion i dont come here to fight with incompetent people who think they can cherry pick the Quran and call themselves muslim but tell them straight to their face what Islam is about. U dont like it? no1’s forcing u to be muslim….DUH! …. Islam isnt going to die if u leave BUT u will die sooner or later just like every1 else. Islam clearly states people like u and ur kind

        29:2-3] “Do the people think that they will be left to say, “We believe,” without being put to the test?” We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

        [3:179] GOD is not to leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the bad from the good.

        [2:214] Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you?

        **if you think the Quran says “fresh water and salt water don’t mix” you would accept it as truth, unquestionably.**

        oh yes i would accept it unquestionably cause then Allah(swt) would have made it into reality.And u just proved by that statement that u Just like during the battle of badr when the enemies looked twice in number but in reality they were 3x more than the muslims. Now what are the odds of muslims winning when the kuffar had got better weapons and more men. BUT as we know the MUNAFIQS always deserted their unity and left cause they didnt believe and their abode is worse than the non muslims!. It isnt the non muslims who will be in the deepest hell. It will be the munafiqs.

        “The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper wilt thou find for them;” (An-Nisaa’: 145)

        So u see curses from u dont count cause u only take what u like and leave the rest. Why not join some KKK clan like the NOI which calls themselves muslims and say white people are devils made in a rat lab.:D

  8. Wow, I don’t know where to start. Here is a hypothetical: Ok, so a woman is “not in the mood”… maybe “Islamically” that means she’s a bad wife (although I think that is a stretch at best) – but when her husband forces sex on her when she says no, then he is a RAPIST. I really don’t know how to emphasize this enough. Rape is about cruelty more than sex anyways.

    And by the way, I would really appreciate if you educated yourself a little more about Judaism before you make these claims. You already misunderstood how their religion is passed on – isn’t it possible you need to do some fact checking? If you have to be an expert on Islam before you make pronouncements, you better be an expert on Judaism before you speak for them. I HAVE read the Torah, and I have several Jewish friends. I have been to Jewish weddings and other celebrations (a wedding for a woman who converted to Judaism, btw). Seriously, I handle insults directed at me WAY better than insults directed at my friends… don’t push me.

    “Majority Shia believe Ali(rad) is comparable to god.” As opposed to how some Sunni view Muhammad…

    “i’m not a spokesperson for the people that leave nasty comments on ur channel.” I never meant to imply you were! If anything I was hoping those people would read what you said and think twice before commenting. Maybe they’d shun me instead of harass.

    Oh boy, much more to say but out of time.

    • oh boy now that was a mature response. 😀

      Firstly if the wife OR i said the HUSBAND dont comply then they have a problem and both of them are guilty and are sinning if one or the other doesnt come to the need of the other.

      Now this isnt 1 sided. As i said BOTH of them. The husband is obliged to treat his wife in a kind and reasonable manner. Part of that kind and reasonable treatment is intercourse, which he has to do.Now He (the husband) is obliged to have intercourse with her if she asks, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

      “…so as to leave the other hanging (i.e. neither divorced nor married)…”

      [al-Nisa’ 4:129]

      meaning, neither divorcing her so that she can marry another or leaving her without a husband because he is not fulfilling his duty of having intercourse with her.

      Now the same is for the women. She must obey him if he asks her to come to his bed, and that is obligatory upon her. If she refuses to come to his bed, she is a defiant sinner… as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

      “As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) strike them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)”

      [al-Nisa’ 4:34]

      Now if the wife and husband still dont comply with each other then that is one wrecked couple and sooner or later arguments and fights will lead to divorce.

      Really i’m shocked u read the torah and didnt read these parts which i will list with references.

      “The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts.”
      Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

      “The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honour the the dog more than the non-Jew.”
      Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

      “Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form.”
      Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

      “A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal.”
      Coschen hamischpat 405

      “If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog.”
      Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b

      “Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God.”
      Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

      Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

      Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

      Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

      Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

      Now plz do explain those since u have said u have read the torah. U couldnt have missed all those points did u? ….
      And according to halakha, a child is not Jewish if the child’s mother is not Jewish. The ruling is derived from various sources including Deuteronomy 7:1-5, Leviticus 24:10, Ezra 10:2-3.

      NOW PLZ DO EXPLAIN SINCE IM GIVING MY REFERENCES SO I HOPE U DO ALSO. 🙂

      **As opposed to how some Sunni view Muhammad**
      Now that is just how u see it. Muhammad(sws) is the best of creation. Will u deny that part?. Cause Allah(swt) himself said that. Now i dont call on Muhammad(sws) to help me like the shias do. U can see the shias mostly say *ya ALi madad*(meaning O Ali Plz help) … so asking other than Allah(swt) is shirk. Now giving Muhammad(swt) a status higher than us ordinary people isnt considered worshiping him but the respect he(sws) deserves since Allah(swt) himself speaks highly of him(sws).

      well here is what u said above **If the right thing to do is shun people who you think are wrong, why do so many people come to my blog to leave nasty comments?**

      NOW that was a question asking me something And i simply said i dont represent those or any other people that leave comments on ur channel.
      And other people dont care what i say. It’s the so called *freedom of speech* to insult so they are also using it just like when its used against them. In Islam we are told to be just and so like i said i dont hold their views UNLESS some1 is unjust to me or my brethren.

      • “If she refuses to come to his bed, she is a defiant sinner”
        Even if that’s true – if the man forces her after she refuses, then he’s a rapist. Sex + LackOfConsent = Rape. Period.

        Moving on… your right, I missed those quotes when I read the Torah, and here’s why:

        Most of your quotes aren’t even from the Torah (the books of Moses), they’re from the Talmud (a record of rabbinic discussions – a collection of hadith of rabbis, if you like). Would you like me to find some nasty, bigoted hadiths attributed to Muhammad, or maybe some selections from Ibn Ishaq’s biography of the Prophet? Because the internet is full of websites devoted to showing how Islam is a religion of hate… and you are using the exact same tactics here against Judaism.

        Again I ask that you please check your facts before you make these claims against Jews. Or any religion, for that matter. Maybe you should read the Torah, study the religion a bit, before you decide its a religion of jerks.

  9. well sophia i dont know bout the force part. I did say its different between couples but i dont remember using the force part. I did use the word *sinners* though.

    Well u can show me Ibn Ishaq’s works and i will try to reply all the questions u pose but dont except me to have the answers to everything cause i dont have a degree in Islam. And u can show me those hadiths too which u say. I do remember the last hadith which u shows of Muhammad(sws) was taken in the wrong sense by u. idk if u still take it in the wrong sense.

    And yes they are from the talmud. Something the jews believe in, like we muslims believe in sahih hadiths. And a jew is obliged to believe in the talmud cause they are their highest authorities ,that is the rabbis who wrote it. And they teach it in Israel and ill let u figure the rest.

    The difference between the talmud and hadiths is we got isnaad to authenticate hadiths. While the talmud is taken without authentication and is taken as a religious book by the jews that is followed.

    And i know the Quran has told me about the jews as a whole to be hostile against muslims. I said as a whole not on an individual basis.

  10. blackb3ard911, you said, “well rape is forbidden in islam and every1 knows that. But if its between a married couple than thats different.” You further said (addressed, I believe, to unsettledsoul) “I said its different between married couple but i didnt say USE FORCE which u seem to put in my mouth.”

    Rape is defined as any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. Please explain how you feel it is different when a husband does it to his wife (a.k.a. “between a married couple”) so that we can all avoid putting words in your mouth. You have shown that, through your interpretation of the Quran, that you feel married partners share an obligation to each other to fulfill sexual needs, but I still don’t see how that pertains to marital rape.

    “I do remember the last hadith which u shows of Muhammad(sws) was taken in the wrong sense by u.” Your most likely right, I probably didn’t understand the context or had a bad translation… isn’t it possible, then, that you made a similar error in your quotes from the Talmud (especially since you thought it was the Torah)? Isn’t it possible that you don’t know to what extent the Talmud is considered authoritative (since several branches of Judaism do not accept it as such, and even some more conservative elements limit its use)? Isn’t it possible that judging Jews as a whole group is just as bad as judging Muslims as a whole group?

  11. yes i did say that but i cant seem to see the part where i used the word ‘force’ in my statement. It doesnt mean i say ‘its different’ then it means to use force. I posted u the ayats showing its a sin. And they are both open sinners. And no it was not cherry picked but posted accordingly to the people that do not comply with each other. And there are certain times when the wife/husband is allowed to be excused from having sex.

    Firstly there woudlnt be any marital rape in a devout muslim family. Why? .. well i think ur smart enough to know that devout people dont go against the Quran and sunnah unless it is specifically allowed.

    oh yes my bad …The title clearly stated the talmud from where i got it. And it wasnt cherry picked or anything cause it is written as it is posted. Firstly Israel teaches the talmud. Rabbis follow the talmud. And like i said the jews ‘as a whole’ are hostile towards muslims. It is ever since they broke their covenant with god and were kicked out of Israel and the arabs were chosen from then on rather than them. And the talmud isnt just some ordinary book for them. Most rabbis follow it and the ones that dont object to it when they teach it to their students in Israel. I dont know if they teach it in jewish schools in the US

    The Talmud is a central text of mainstream Judaism. And to them its just like the hadiths to us. Most jews follows it like most muslims follow sahih hadeeths. Now i am saying as a whole and not on an individual basis that jews are hostile towards muslims ever since they lost their covenant with god. And i just need to look at israel to know that. Israel doesnt deny any attacks it does on UN schools and hospitals. They justify them by saying there were ‘terrorists’ which were supposedly 4-14 year olds taking cover in there.

    And i said i dont judge the jews on an individual basis. So tell me since u have read the Quran then doesnt it talk bout the jews in it? …and it doesnt mean we should be unjust the jews also or any other group as a matter of fact.

    Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth so you may judge between the people by that which Allah has shown you. And do not be for the deceitful an advocate.
    Al Nisa (4:105)

    The Commentators explain this passage with reference to the case of Ta’imah ibn Ubayraq, who was nominally a Muslim but really a hypocrite, and given to all sorts of wicked deeds. He was suspected of having stolen a set of armour, and when the trail was hot, he planted the stolen property in the house of a Jew, where it was found. The Jew denied the charge and accused Ta’imah, but the sympathies of the Muslim community were with Ta’imah on account of his nominal profession of Islam. The case was brought to the Prophet, who acquitted the Jew according to the strict principle of justice, as “guided by Allah”. Attempts were made to prejudice him and deceive him into using his authority to favour Ta’imah.When Ta’imah realized that his punishment was imminent he fled and turned
    apostate.

    • No, you didn’t use the word force. I used the word rape, and you seemed to be saying that rape is somehow different between married couples. Maybe this is all just a misunderstanding or error in communication. If so, then I apologize for my part in the misunderstanding.

      Moving on to our random discussion of Jewish theology. Lets start with the quotes that were not “cherry picked or anything cause it is written as it is posted”. Posted where (I’m guessing a website, not your own personal copy of the Talmud)? Because whoever posted it was, in fact, cherry picking (FYI: cherry picking is the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.)

      Lets look at your quotes and see what the actual translation and context is (since you seem to be assuming they are correct and ignoring the point I made earlier that you might have misunderstood something, like I did with that hadith).

      1)“The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts.”
      Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b
      First of all, looking at this would lead a reader to think it is a direct quote… it is not. This is the ACTUAL passage: “Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai said: The graves of gentiles do not cause ritual impurity in a dwelling as it says (Ezekiel 34:31) “Now, you [Israel] are My sheep , the sheep of My pasture, you are Man (Adam)…” You [Israel, the subject of the verse] are called Man (Adam) and gentiles are not called Man (Adam).” What does this mean? The Talmud understands the word “Adam” in the Torah as referring to the Jewish people who are an organic unit like one person (talmud.faithweb.com) – think of it as a Jewish Ummah. This verse was only regarding ritual purity and the use of holy oil, not making a blanket statement about Gentiles being non-human… it only pointed out that they were not Jews, so Jewish rituals need not apply. Apparently the quote you found, blackb3ard911, is at best mistranslated and at worst intentionally deceptive.

      2)“The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honour the the dog more than the non-Jew.”
      Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30
      Not only is this not a direct quote, the passage cited doesn’t even exist (there is no Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30)! But the word “Akum” actually means idolater, not non-Jew. Not that it matters, since this is likely fake.

      3)“Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form.”
      Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855
      Again, the reference doesn’t exist, at least not in the Talmud or the Torah. Given that this HAS NO SOURCE, it seems likely this is a forgery.

      4)“A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal.”
      Coschen hamischpat 405
      From http://www.rense.com/general21/tal.htm:
      “The above quote is a wrong inference from a fiscal law in Shulchan Oruch, Choshen Mishpat 405.3, that relates to times when slavery was a standard and accepted practice across the world.

      It states that if an ox gored a pregnant woman, and this resulted in the loss of the fetus, the owner does not have to pay for the loss of the fetus (medical expenses and other damages are discussed elsewhere). If an ox gored a pregnant non-Jewish slave-woman, the owner of the ox has to pay for the loss of the fetus to the owner of the slave-woman (because the owner would have had another slave to work for him had the woman given birth). The same applies if the ox gored a pregnant cow, or a sheep, because had the animal given birth, the owner would have had an extra one. The law is clearly hinged on the rights of the owner, and does not compare non-Jews and animals in any way. It is purely legal, and does not have any philosophical or social implications.”

      Have I made my point yet? As we already know, your quotes weren’t from the Torah. Now it seems quite a few weren’t even from the Talmud, but were forged. Those that managed to actually cite passages that exist in the Talmud still misquoted, mistranslated, and yes, cherry picked the parts that suited the overall picture of a hate-filled religion. You also said, “Most jews follows it like most muslims follow sahih hadeeths”, which isn’t true. Most non-rabbi’s don’t know it well, many don’t know it at all.

      Also, you said, ” it doesnt mean we should be unjust the jews also or any other group as a matter of fact.” I heartily agree. So research before you make wild claims, and stop spreading lies about Judaism – because that is what you are doing, and that IS injustice.

  12. well at least u finally understood my saying ‘it’s different’ doesnt constitute to saying using rape but considered a rape …

    on the talmud writings well hmmm …. lets see …. just for the sake of argument i will agree with u ….. but hey wait a second. Here is a a jewish hero, one of the many rabbi’s in israel explaining what the talmud teaches which is an exact contradiction to what u posted. Now if what he was saying was wrong then he should have been arrested for inciting and spreading terrorism against non jews but he wasnt.

    Furthermore during Israels massacre in gaza last year or so , a military rabbi gave these quotes to the soldiers in the form of manuscripts and it didnt contain any such explanation that to which ur website is saying. The rabbi who gave those manuscripts isnt in a jail. He’s a hero in israel. So i think i’ll go with the rabbi that is recognized in Israel as a hero.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/AntiHypocrisy#p/u/64/LIMM6f4JuRE

    Even for the sake of argument i do agree with what that website is saying then , i just need to look at history at what has happened all the time with the jews. Wasnt it the jews that plotted and tried to kill jesus? …. Wasnt it the jews that fished on sabbath with trickery thinking they were smarter than Allah(swt) , however there were a small party of jews that rejected this trickery. Like i said most jews believe in the talmud in the sense posted and not in the sense that u are trying to explain. I mean these rabbis teach the talmud in the context i posted in schools in Israel openly so what is there left to add? …..

  13. **doesnt constitute to saying using rape but considered a rape …**

    doesnt constitute to saying using rape but considered a SIN.

    typo

    • “Like i said most jews believe in the talmud in the sense posted and not in the sense that u are trying to explain. I mean these rabbis teach the talmud in the context i posted in schools in Israel openly so what is there left to add?”
      No, they don’t believe it as you posted it. What you posted were forgeries and lies. Rabbis do not teach what you posted, because what you posted was not even from the Talmud – as I already pointed out, the quotes you found were either fraudulently mistranslated or simply DO NOT EXIST. Why would Jews teach something fabricated by anti-Semites? I only believed you got them from the Talmud because thats what the references you gave me said – but those references were either faulty or just made up! By the way, you still haven’t told me where you got the quotes, because you didn’t get them from the Talmud.

      Also, if you have a bone to pick with individual Jews, go ahead, but don’t claim that you or they speak for Judaism as a whole. I know absolutely nothing about the guy in that video. If all Jews are going to be judged based on this guy, should all Muslims be judged likewise? Should I go for the obvious and judge all Muslims based on Osama bin Laden’s words, or shall I pick some obscure cleric preaching hate against all things “western”?

      Or maybe you want to judge Judaism based on the actions of leaders in Isreal. Ok, so does that mean I should judge the religion of Islam based on the leaders of Saudi Arabia?

      When I showed you the hadith about Muhammad beating Aisha, you showed me a pile of info showing how it was mistranslated and misunderstood, and I admitted that you were probably right and that these things need to be researched before a conclusion is made.

      Here, you posted fabricated information that you claimed was from real sources, and when their authenticity was challenged you switched to picking one random nutcase to try to prove your point. If I used the same tactics against your religion you would think I was an Islamaphobe. Hypocrisy doesn’t flatter you, blackb3ard911.

      “Wasnt it the jews that plotted and tried to kill jesus?” Jesus was a Jew, and so were many of his early followers. And if Jews are generally hostile towards Muslims, by your logic, then, Jesus must really hate Muslims

      Again I ask you, beg you, to stop and think before you make hateful claims about Jews and Judaism.

      • By the way, I decided to look up the rabbi you mentioned. His name was (WAS, because he was shot in 1990), Meir Kahane. He was an ultra-nationalist American-Israeli writer and political figure. He also posed as a Christian in order to infiltrate a right-wing religious group, during which time he had an affair with a woman, which ended with him dumping her and her suicide. Not exactly a fine example of proper Jewish behavior!

        Also, you objected to how his behavior was perceived by Isreal. In 1988, the Israeli government banned Kach [an Israeli political party founded by Kahane] for inciting racism. In 1994, following the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre perpetrated by a Kahane follower, Kach was outlawed completely. The U.S. State Department listed it as a terrorist organization in 1994.

        Whatever followers this man has are not mainstream, and many if not most are considered terrorist suspects by Israel and the US. He is nothing close to a hero of the state of Israel. If this is your idea of a “hero”, then you’ve got problems, friend.

  14. interestingly first they build a shrine for him and then they destroy it like 10 years later or something and say he’s not a hero. Even if he wasnt a hero what about the rabbi that give manuscripts to the soldiers of killing palestinians during the gaza invasion. Oh yeah wait a sec….. The whole of israel is a terrorist state so much for calling other people like Baruch Goldstein a terrorist.

    oh yeah and i totally forgot saying anything against jews is anti semite and will destroy ur career especially in the west …. wow a whole category dedicated for people who are anti zionist jews known as anti semite.

    and from wher e i got it is this guy called hoffman
    http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

    now of course u wont believe anything he says since hes also an anti semite.

    but to just look at israel defines the common jew since israel is a jewish state.

    • Ok, so your not a fan of Israel. Fine. I’m not either, for the record.

      That doesn’t mean you’ll get blanket approval to spread lies about Judaism. You don’t like the politics of Israel, then go ahead and raise objections, spread awareness, etc. But you don’t like Jews, period, so you’re going to spread whatever hateful crap you can copy/paste off the web and call it fact. Its shameful. By the way, I shared MY sources with you, you sent me a pile of fabricated bs and still haven’t even told me what webpage you got it from. Why is that?

      Because you seem to be confused about another aspect of Jewish life, let me explain something to you: Not all Jews are from Israel. I live in California, my Jewish friends are originally from… California! So when you post deceitful information and claim it represents the beliefs of Jews in general – guess what? Your insulting MY friends, buddy, and I don’t take that well.

      If you were actually interested in opposing Israel, there are far better ways than disseminating falsehoods on random blogs – and you’re a smart guy blackb3ard911, you should know that. Instead, you intentionally throw lies around, hold up random losers as examples of your cause, and somehow miss the fact that you are doing everything an Islamaphobe would do, except against Judaism. Is this acting justly? Is this how Muslims are expected to act, really?

      Do you really want to be identical in behavior to an Islamaphobe? Because if you do, maybe you could go to their websites and take notes – they seem to be doing a great job in the US media so maybe you could borrow some of their tricks.

      For the record, I don’t believe what you sent me earlier for one simple reason: they turned out to be lies. You lied about where they came from (not the Torah, as you tried to claim), you’ve refused to answer the question of where they ACTUALLY came from, and the quotes themselves were either wrong or complete forgeries. I wanted to believe you were acting out of ignorance, but now I’m not so sure. If this guy tells the truth I might listen… but considering you’ve sent me lies once already, and a link to a story about a man who’s been dead for 20 years and considered a racist by his own people, I don’t have high hopes for this info.

  15. well if u actually read the link i gave then u would know where i got it …. cant u see the link? …..

    and u said that i posted all wrong references …. but now lets look at this video here …. now in this video the Israeli court is doing exactly what the talmud teaches as to what i posted.

    and to show that orthodox jews do what i posted

    ….. well i guess action speak louder than words …. but like i said i dont believe all jews are the same. For example muslims that dont accept the hadiths are well not ‘so muslim’ and the same goes for jews that dont follow their orthodox teachings.

    And yes i know talking bad against jews in any sense gets u labelled anti semite in the west.

    and then i thought maybe it was lies what i read from the above link i posted. But then after reading the very same quotes here i think otherwise since these guys dont lie

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/jews1.htm

    • Oh dear, this is what I get for reading comments when I’m supposed to be getting ready for work – sorry blackb3ard911, I thought that link was for something new about that rabbi, apologies for the mistake.

    • *sigh* Maybe I’m not communicating well here, because I feel you’ve missed my point. You say you don’t believe all jews are the same, but you also said, “israel defines the common jew since israel is a jewish state”, completely ignoring the beliefs and actions of jews across the globe. You disregard the fact that the Talmud quotes you copied were fabricated or misquoted, saying that those who don’t believe those lies are simply not orthodox. This begs the question, again, why would orthodox Jews, or anyone, follow something that was completely made-up by non-Jews?

      Bringing up example after example of Israel’s cruelty may be evidence that Israel is in the wrong, but you have been trying to blame Judaism as a whole by posting lies about fundamental Jewish beliefs. Your blaming the religion itself instead of the actions of those who call it their religion. That is simply bigotry, and I doubt you’d appreciate it if it were directed at Islam instead.

      Regarding your links, I found the 2nd video interesting, since it had examples of ultra-orthodox men mistreating women trying to worship – do you really want to start a discussion about how women are treated in Muslim-majority countries versus how women are treated in Israel? Interestingly the video featured 1)a woman openly speaking out against such treatment to the press and emphasizing the secular nature of the state, thus pointing out that women must be treated fairly under the law, 2) Rabbi Uri Regev, who founded an organization that opposed radical religious political movement in Israel, openly opposing them on tv and public rallies, and claiming to represent a slim majority of Israelis who favor pluralism and equal rights 3) A young feminist activist talking openly on the streets. I also didn’t see any dress code being enforced on any women… but by all means, please tell me which Muslim-majority country treats its women better. Since Israel represents the “common jew”, shall I assume Saudi Arabia represents the common Muslim? Their are crazies in every religion, including Islam and Judaism. If you want to write off every religion that has evil people claiming to follow it, you might as well become an atheist right now (of course, there are probably crazy zealous atheists too).

      As for what you said about answering-christianity.com: “these guys dont lie” – Seriously? Have you actually checked the “facts” they list? Because the actual fact of the matter is that those quotes DO NOT EXIST IN THE TORAH OR THE TALMUD. I checked! I actually searched both texts, just in case! (It was a lovely waste of time, btw). How much clearer does it get – they are fake, not real, made-up, pile of horse -sh…. you get what I’m saying. So either “these guys” are lying, or they are delusional. At best, they got it from some other lying/delusional source (and if so it wasn’t listed, btw) and didn’t bother to investigate – which just makes them lazy and/or stupid.

      What I want to know is: if you are willing to post lies about one religion as pretext for your agenda, can I believe you won’t also spread lies about others, like Islam?

  16. and the weird thing is if u type ‘download quran’ in google u get tons of replies allowing u to download it …. u type ‘download talmud’ and i cant seem to find any downloadable version.

  17. Hey Sophia….just wanted to say I really liked the article but I kinda lost the point of this post in the comments…so thats all I have to say! lol But the article was cool thanks for sharing.

    • Yeah, I know what you mean. I really need to learn not to take the bait, but I’m argumentative by nature and I can’t let things go. Its a bad habit that’s gotten me in trouble before. 😦

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